Michaels said a political character "won't work unless you make them likable and likable doesn't mean you're endorsing them. Who doesn't like Sam Richardson? Belushi did manage to get through the Kate Jackson-hosted episode. SNL is not trying for a laugh anymore. He said, I dont necessarily put so much weight into [the idea of] Trump hosting SNL helping him become president, but theres definitely something where it normalizes him, and it makes it OK for him to be part of the conversation., Latest U.S. Economy & Politics News and Updates. ET Both reduced the politician in question, and Michaels and co. cant risk that. Trump was in the middle of his presidential campaign at the time and Michaels decision to let him hostpromptedfan protests. featuring cast memberKenan Thompson and a dancingSudekis ismaking a return appearance. Victoria Jackson, a six-year veteran of Saturday Night Live, is publicly wondering if her opposition to gay marriage prompted Lorne Michaels to treat her differently than the other cast members . They are self centered, entitled and highly hypocritical! Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. His daughter, Sophie, has appeared in episodes, one of which was during the show's 30th season hosted by Johnny Knoxville during the monologue when Lorne introduces Johnny Knoxville to his daughter and Sophie shocks Knoxville with a taser. Matthew Thomas is a freelance writer who has written hundreds of articles over the last several years. Per Far Out, Michaels first tried the charm offensive, telling the Merseysiders, "In my book, The Beatles are the best thing that ever happened to music. Admittedly, Richardson did impress the "Saturday Night Live" creator with a Second City performance enough to be offered an audition. Evil, the antagonist of Austin Powers in three films, has mannerisms and a speaking style based on Lorne Michaels. The New York Times interviewed Michaels about the show's 48th season, starting Oct. 1. Michaels, who co-created Saturday Night Live in 1975, revealed to New York Magazine in 2014 that he had registered as an Independent. By Jesse David. It'll be easy. Throughout the show's history, SNL has been nominated for more than 156 Emmy Awards and has won 36. While Hollywoods donor base has gotten younger and more diverse, veteran executiveJeffrey Katzenberg more than doubled the donation total of any member of the THR 100, giving $1,116,300 so far. Contact Patricia Talorico at (302) 324-2861 or ptalorico@delawareonline.com and on Twitter @pattytalorico. The full executive donation list tallied by THR can be viewed below: Sign up for THR news straight to your inbox every day. When Chevy Chase played Gerald Ford, for instance, Michaels said Chasemade no effort tolook like Ford. All Rights Reserved. Hes looking for how to get the best out of you. Great question! Needless to say, Jost was embarrassed. This article is 100% correct. In 2017, Michaels bolstered the campaign budgets of Maines current U.S. SenatorsAngus King, an Independent, and Susan Collins, a RepublicanOpen Secrets reports. It's a test of some kind.'" Dr. The show pretends she doesnt exist, at least as a satirical target. It seems fair to say that Marc Maron's 1995 "Saturday Night Live" audition stuck with him, and his feelings about Lorne Michaels have been fraught. Copyright 2023 Salon.com, LLC. Over the years, Joe Biden has been spoofed by at least seven "SNL" cast members and guest stars, not always withsuccess. He says, 'Well, he could die?' Results have been mixed, More:Dolle's, unofficial candy of Biden White House, hopes for sweet season in new location. Creator Lorne Michaels", "Gal Gadot hosts Saturday Night Live, sends a message in Hebrew to her Israeli fans - OMG - Jerusalem Post", "Lorne Michaels: Biography Book Saturday Night Live", "Toronto-born SNL Creator Lorne Michaels on Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People List", "Lorne Michaels: Saturday Night Live Creator", "Lorne Michaels | Biography, Saturday Night Live, & Facts", "Jews in the News: Maggie Gyllenhaal, Neil Simon and Lorne Michaels", "New Lorne Michaels Biography Will Look at How Political Correctness Has Changed Saturday Night Live", "Award Recipients: Lorne Michaels 2006 Lifetime Artistic Achievement (Broadcasting)", "SNL Transcripts: Beatles Offer, April 24, 1976", "John Lennon: The Playboy Interview September 1980", "Biography and Filmography: Rosie Shuster", "Honours: Order of Canada - Lorne Michaels, C.M., LL.D. Do you pay attention to criticism from people who say they dont feel represented by the shows politics anymore? 2023 The Hollywood Reporter, LLC. They cannot self-reflect. Most notably, Michaels has executive produced some of the most successful late-night talk shows of all time including Late Night with Conan O'Brien and The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon. There have been 5 Joe Biden impressions on 'Saturday Night Live.' "Lorne is very aloof," he said. Kevin Nealon took on the role in 1991 when Biden was Delaware's Democratic senator leading Senate Judiciary Committee hearings over the confirmation of future Supreme Court Judge Clarence Thomas. Former Saturday Night Live actor Taran Killam said the shows creator and executive producer Lorne Michaels told the cast to tone down criticism of then-GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump and find ways to make him likable.. '", Parker was perhaps right not to take things too personally. Fallon took a lot of heat from the press for ruffling Trumps hair, but Jeselnik says the act had far less to do with helping Trump getting elected than Michaels allowing Trump to host SNL. Jeselnik also points out that Michaels is a producer on Fallons Tonight Show., Read more IndieWire:Adult Swim Bringing Crazy Manga 'Uzumaki' in 2020, With Original Music by 'Hereditary' Composer, I felt a little bad for Jimmy in that situation, Jeselnik said. It may be one of the coolest . Do Democrats need a past superstar to hold the White House in 2024? He occasionally appears on-screen as well, where he is known for his deadpan humor. I guess Liberals cant laugh at themselves or their political figures. One asked Michaels if it was true he vacationed with Pete Davidson. Reproduction of material from any Salon pages without written permission is strictly prohibited. Back before he was more renowned for his acerbic sense of humor than acts of sexual misconduct, Louis C.K. What I discovered after the first five years was that talented people tend to move on and less talented people tend to be the most loyal. On why he doesnt have a Twitter account (and this is the best quote): I dont tweet for a very simple reason, which is that I drink. "You find the thing about them that's true, that seems like it's them. Lorne Michaels with President Joe Biden at a reception for Kennedy Center honorees in the East Room at the White House on Dec. 5, 2021 According to Open Secrets political donation data,. However, when looking at the words Colin Jost wrote about trying to protect new SNL writers, the shows fans werent brought up at all. And Im sureand I dont want to put words in his mouth, and I havent talked to Jimmy in yearsbut Im sure its one of his biggest regrets., Jeselnik, who auditioned to join SNL Season 40 as a Weekend Update correspondent, also slammed the show over reports that Michaelsinstructed writersnot tovilify Trump in sketches during his hosting gig. Yes, unlike his regular collaborator Tim Robinson, who served as performer and staff writer, Richardson never got the chance to work on America's most famous sketch show. 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Like I said, this is made out to 'The Beatles.' In 2015, Maron invited Michaels onto his "WTF" podcast specifically to address the experience (via Flavorwire). Do you pay attention to criticism from people who say they dont feel represented by the shows politics anymore? It was Michaels who executive produced the well-coiffed funnyman's long-running series "Late Night with Conan O'Brien." It has consistently been one of the highest-rated late-night television programs. I think when Will Ferrell left, hed already had three movies that worked. The writer then revealed that Michaels did eventually meet with the baying mob but only on his own terms. Likable means some level of charm.". But he still remains bewildered about the whole process: "I don't know what Lorne and the producers wanted from those auditions, or what they learned from them. But Slate told InStylemagazine that her explicit language wasn't to blame for her dismissal. Of course, O'Brien eventually managed to make more of an impression on the head honcho. Its all about them. USA Today even less kindlylabeled it "cringe-worthy.". Its a long piece, but its worth the read. His bigger concern? The "SNL" regular said on "Watch What Happens Live" that Seagal didn't exactly ingratiate himself with the cast. And he didn't say a word he just turned and walked away and went back into his office and closed the door. Michaels reportedly told SNL writers they had to finda way in that makes [Trump] likable., Read more IndieWire:Valerie Harper Dies: 'Mary Tyler Moore' and 'Rhoda' Star Was 80, I dont know if would have shown up for work that day, Jeselnik said. They very nearly went, but changed their minds as it was getting too late to get to the show on time, and they were both tired. It was another tactic of breaking you. 2012: As a member of the Order of Canada, he was also awarded with The Queen's Diamond Jubilee Medal. It explains why late night hosts strain to avoid mentioning Bidens mental state or Harriss word salad jamborees. It sounds like a polarizing management style, to say the least. ET First Published: March 1, 2023 at 4:40 p.m. Only three members of this yearsTHR 100 list donated to Republicans or Republican committees: Saturday Night Livecreator Lorne Michaels donated $5,000 to moderate Republican Sen. Susan Collins; WarnerMedia CEO John Stankey gave $2,000 to both Tennessee Republican Senate candidate Marsha Blackburn and theNational Republican Congressional Committee; and Viacom CEO Bob Bakish gave $1,500 to Republican Georgia Sen.Johnny Isakson and $1,000 to Senate Majority LeaderMitch McConnell. Evil and Alec Baldwin's scrupulous TV boss Jack Donaghy, certainly hasn't been afraid to throw his fair amount of shade during his glittering career. The creator then saves Jon Lovitz from the blaze, leaving everyone else behind, telling the chosen one, "Don't ask any questions. Might make them question why they are liberal in the first place?? SNL all but ignores flawed Democrats like President Joe Biden, Vice President Kamala Harris, Gov. Instead, based on Josts words, it doesnt matter if SNL fans like a sketch if the shows boss doesnt which is pretty wild. The Senate Majority PAC was the primary recipient, with HBO host Bill Maher ($1 million), Netflix CEO Reed Hastings ($500,000) and Endeavor executives Ari Emanuel ($100,000) and Patrick Whitesell ($100,000) making major donations. Forty-five percent of attendees were UD students most of whom weren'tborn when the late-nightcomedy sketch show first aired on NBC in 1975. In a 2018 interview on the I Was There Too podcast (via The Hill), former SNL performer Taran Killam recalled Michaels being so specific about what the cast could say about Trump before the 2016 presidential election. Nothing like a casual ribbing about employment status to keep your confidence up. Copyright 2023 Market Realist. I was really mad." Trump was broughtin as aguest host for the show in 2015, before the Republican primaries. The impression did more than make audiences howland leaving Chase with chronic back pain. Saturday Night Live fans might be curious about Lorne Michaels politics now that the SNL creator is receiving Kennedy Center Honors and, in a new interview with CBS Mornings, talking about his retirement plans. While I havent watched that cringe worthy show since the the mid to late 90s, I do remember someone from the show being quoted saying, in effect, that Obama was simply impossible to mock, because there was nothing to mock; in other words, he was perfect. Recalling the ending of the episode in an 2014 interview with Vulture, Michaels shared,"[Berle] said, 'Don't worry, the standing ovation is all set.' Ummmsure. Michaels is also executive producer of the Emmy-nominated "The . As the series creator and producer said in"Live From New York," "I knew we were headed for disaster from minute one." Wednesday is a read-aloud on everything to see if it gets laughs. [14], Michaels and his two younger siblings were raised in Toronto; he attended Forest Hill Collegiate Institute. Lorne Michaels got political in the very first season of NBCs Saturday Night Live.. In the years since Saturday Night Live debuted in 1975, it has become one of the longest-running shows in television history. Learn how your comment data is processed. The country has lost interest in it. Levy said, "There was an insurrection, really. Michaels offers a rambling answer, ending with a revealing quote: But the first priority cant be not offending people you like or who are powerful and if someone does something stupid, it would be glaring to not deal with it.. Compared to individual executives, entertainment company political action committees generally strive for partisan balance. You just lose the audience," he said. [31], Michaels received the Governor General's Performing Arts Award for Lifetime Artistic Achievement in 2006, Canada's highest honor in the performing arts. Michaels didn't say if Sudekis would be bringing back his portrayal ofBiden, but he did mention the possibility of thereturn of a very popular skit with the actor. And he was confronted by this mob. It's another to have to find out not from anyone connected with the series but an online news article. According to what Jost wrote in his book, if Lorne Michaels doesnt like a sketch written by a new writer, Colin cant just argue against the boss if he disagrees. Its the same techniques cults usethey keep you up for hours, they never let you know that youre okay, and they always make you think that your spot could be taken at any moment by someone else.. "Saturday Night Live" creator/executive producer Lorne Michaels chattedabout John Belushi, Chevy Chaseand going to the movies with Pete Davidson during a talk on Thursday at the University of Delaware's Mitchell Hall in Newark. It didn't matter that Ford's athletic background was beyond dispute. We need to stop hoping SNL will become anything but a left wing propaganda factory. When its solid enough, walk across it. Thats Kristen. But Michaels said Chase played up one tripping incident by Ford, even though the president wasn't a clumsy person,and thenincorporated it into everyFord sketchhe did. [30], In 2004, he was awarded the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor by the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. However, if you dont have the time to spare, here were my favorite takeaways: On why it helps that Jimmy Fallon unlike Letterman is not an ironic guy: Well, when you compare it to what we were doing in the seventies or Sam Kinison in the eighties and ninetiesthats all still out there, in the clubs. Lorne Michaels (right) was joined by Sarah Palin, one of the Republicans happy to embrace her doppelganger for an episode of NBC's 'Saturday Night Live' on Oct. 18, 2008. Hollywood has always been a reliable source of contributions to Democratic Party politicians and organizations, but perhaps never so more than the 2018 election cycle. We all get there eventually, I guess. This would have been a show record at the time, but it wasn't a record that co-creator Lorne Michaels wanted to break. And in the retrospective "Live From New York: The Complete, Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live," castmate Tim Meadows revealed, "He just wasn't funny and he was very critical of the cast and writing staff. But Jay Pharoah does a really good Obama. The Atlantic wonders why we're still arguing about masks. The Fab Four had split in apparently acrimonious circumstances six years earlier, but that didn't stop the. Lorne Michaels may consider tough guy Steven Seagal to be the worst "Saturday Night Live" host of all time. He donated to Republican Sen. John McCain in 2000, 2004, and twice in 2007. As he recalled to Jimmy Fallon, when asked if he had any questions for the comedy legend, an understandably flustered Jost could only think to ask Michaels where he's from a factoid that's common knowledge to any "SNL" fan. Anderson Cooper on CNN's Town Hall in Baltimore, Dolle's, unofficial candy of Biden White House, hopes for sweet season in new location, Sims said the most recent portrayal of Biden byJohnson, "What Up With That?" People may receive compensation for some links to products and services on this website. 2023 www.delawareonline.com. Hollywood in Toto Podcast Corbin Bernsen Finds Faith, Enduring Success, Showtimes Waco: The Aftermath Boosts Medias Jan. 6 Narrative, Joe Rogan on Biden Administration: These People Are Utter Fools, Operation Fortune Offers Generic Guy Ritchie Mayhem, Hunt Her Kill Her Makes the Most of Its Limited Budget, Setting, Kings Children of the Corn Still Searching for Credible Big-Screen Version, WATCH: Kyle Dunnigan Mocks Hunter Biden in Hilarious Clip, Liam Neeson Drops the Action, Misses the Mark in Marlowe, impression did more than make audiences howl, gave up on mocking the first black president. "It was such a. More:There have been 5 Joe Biden impressions on 'Saturday Night Live.' The guy is unshakeable. I dont know what would have happened.. [15][16], Michaels began his career as a writer and broadcaster for CBC Radio. It's the wrong question. Feb 27, 2017. From the archives:There have been 5 Joe Biden impressions on 'Saturday Night Live.' On political comedy, and why the SNL hasn't done many political sketches this season: . In fact, the head honcho made it clear in no uncertain terms that he wasn't prepared to put audiences through so much C.K. Chris Christie's bridge scandal rather . The producer then tried to compromise by offering him a still-unprecedented seven minutes, but this didn't placate the stage-hogging C.K. He said the cast could hear anti-Trump protesters outside of the shows New York studios before the hosting gig. It's one thing to get fired from America's premier sketch show after just a single season. She was always deeply Christian. Offers may be subject to change without notice. The funnyman added, "As soon as I took the candy I swear to God Lorne shot a look at the head writer that clearly connoted to me that I had failed the test.". More and more in the last 10 or 15 years things turned more partisan, particularly in cable, both in news and in comedy., He also said, So the idea that whoever it is, youre against it, is a harder thing to make work now, because people want you to go, Hes all bull, I dont like her, whatever that is. Larry David, John Mulaney, and Adam McKay are just a handfulof the hundreds of writers that have been employed by "Saturday Night Live" since its premiere in 1975. Required fields are marked *. VP Harriss gaffes, her fleeing staffers and results-free methods similarly didnt get name-checked on SNL.. Trump and Lorne Michaels are friends. Instead of letting the likes of Anthony Michael Hall know that he was surplus to requirements in person, Michaels essentially did so in the form of a sketch. [23], In The Kids in the Hall movie Brain Candy, the character of Don Roritor was based heavily on actor Mark McKinneys impersonation of Lorne Michaels. One of the things I do respect about Lorne is he is a very good host to his guests, Killam said on the podcast. Nearly all (99.7 percent) the donations made by members of the THR 100 have gone to Democrats or Democratic-leaning organizations. She also appeared in a sketch about underage drinking when Zac Efron hosted the show. In 2020, Saturday Night Live co-head writer and Weekend Update co-host Colin Jost released his memoir A Very Punchable Face. If you or anyone you know is struggling with addiction issues, help is available. Lorne Michaels keeps ducking SNL political-bias question. Carrey stepped away from the role in December 2020. Shorts are filmed on Fridays. Nicolas Cage was hosting, and he said, Im going to be the worst host ever. I just read it off a card: No, that was Steven Seagal. I think the Steven Seagal show was just a really hard week. It was the biggest hit ever that summer. According to an interview in Playboy magazine,[20] John Lennon and Paul McCartney happened to be in New York City that night and wanted to see the show. [10][11], Lorne Michaels was born on November 17, 1944, to Florence (ne Becker) and Henry Abraham Lipowitz. Paging Lorne Michaels! (Jamie McCarthy/Getty Images) This isn't the first time that Michaels has hinted at using the 50th anniversary of the . Following Killamleaving the show, SNL has continued to take swings at Trump and his administration since hetook office. This response did not sit well with her. From Fab Four putdowns to mass firings, here's a look at some examples which illustrate why Michaels is just as much feared within the industry as he is respected. Results have been mixed. Biden Owenssaid while Michaels has said "SNL" is nonpartisan andthe portrayal of real people is"not personal," she asked if the sketcheson the show represent oppositionto authority? All rights reserved. The conversation touched on sizable cast changes, Michaels future with the show (hes not leaving) and SNLs liberal bias. Perhaps you can forgive the moderator of the talk,Valerie Biden Owens,Biden's younger sister, longtime confidant, and Biden Institute chair, for avoidingthe subject. Satirizing nationalpolitical figures has been a hallmark of "Saturday Night Live" for almost 50 years. But when it comes to the worst "Saturday Night Live" show of all time, then that's a completely different story. However, as he explained to "The OffCamera Show," their subsequent encounter didn't exactly leave him confident this would lead to a job on the NBC institution. Michaels actually makes a cameo in the skit, asking, "Billy, are you crazy? Considering how difficult running a weekly live sketch comedy show must be, it makes sense that Michaels gets so much credit for his SNL tenure. [19] He later increased his offer to $3,200, but the money was never claimed. Related: Conan O'Brien Says That This Popular Sitcom Saved His Career. SNL hasnt been funny or relevant in at LEAST 30 years. The conversation touched on sizable cast changes, Michaels future with the show (hes not leaving) and SNLs liberal bias. "It's really the voice of adolescence. [ Barack ] Obama was . I found it to be, quite frankly, revolting., The hair-ruffling thing refers to Jimmy Fallon, who was accused of normalizing Donald Trump after he ruffled his hair during an interview shortly before the 2016 presidential election. Michaels said the key to cast members successfully playing major political figures, especially presidents and presidential candidates, "is you findthe take that works.". I always thought that I was a democrat because that was what I truly believed. In the same book, "SNL" veteran Jane Curtin also acknowledged Michaels' antagonizing approach to work:"I think he picked the right profession, because he gets to lord over people who want to kneel at his feet and he doesn't acknowledge them which makes them work. Students in the audience, who were invitedto ask questions after the talk, mostly focused onrecentcast members. Instead, they went with Michaels' pick"First Man," a film about the life of astronaut Neil Armstrong. When Colin Jost wrote about working for Lorne Michaels, he dared to do so under his own name. He said at a barbecue they watched ajoyful Belushi doing crazy dives and cannonballs into a pool. Sims said the most recent portrayal of Biden byJohnson was "a little more impassioned, a mix of folksiness and desperation." As were reading 40 mediocre sketches, we just hear, No Trump! Maureen Dowd/The New York Times. Bernie Sanders was a no-show at the "Saturday Night Live'' after-party in the Flatiron district. When Michaels mentioned President Bidenwas talking to Anderson Cooper on CNN's Town Hall in Baltimore that same night, Biden Owens joked, "Oh, you mean, Joey?". Michaels said Tina Fey as Sarah Palin was another home run. David Sims, astaff writer atThe Atlantic, wrote Carrey's frenetic take on Biden "wasextremely uninspired." On November 22, 2016, Michaels was awarded the, This page was last edited on 3 March 2023, at 19:14. Kristen did Bridesmaids. Of course, one of the main reasons why the show has become so legendary is that a lot of Saturday Night Live stars have become rich and famous beyond belief. Michaels, again, ignores it. His instinct proved to be right. Michaels was identified as the anointed successor to Greene. In 1975, Michaels created (with fellow NBC employee Dick Ebersol and president of the network Herb Schlosser) the TV show NBC's Saturday Night, which in 1977 changed its name to Saturday Night Live (initially there was a name conflict with an ABC show titled Saturday Night Live with Howard Cosell, which debuted September 20, 1975, and was cancelled on January 17, 1976). In 1979, beloved TV icon Milton Berle was chosen to front an episode of the late-night comic institution, much to Michaels' dismay. He wanted to close the show with September Song, him and a piano. Throughout Holywood history, there have been a handful of powerbrokers whove managed to succeed behind the scenes for decades. Then he acted mildly surprised, as if to say, 'I thought we got rid of you.' In 1976, Lorne Michaels tried to achieve the impossible: reuniting The Beatles. Michaels has three children and has been married three times. On political comedy, and why the SNL hasnt done many political sketches this season: Republicans are easier for us than Democrats. The show even serenaded Obama in absentia when he left the White House in 2016. Then she married an old boyfriend who was a cop. By Maureen Dowd. He refused and eventually left Saturday Night as executive producer over this as well as other conflicts with Silverman. He was coughing, he looked terrible and the doctor says, 'John can't go on,' and I was somewhere between rage and very little sympathy.". I said, Willy, what happened? He said, Milton told me to drop this pipe. I said, Milton, we dont do planned ad-libs. He put his hand on my shoulder and went, I know. It won't work unless it resonates and has some element of truth to it," Michaels said. If you set the cast on fire, they won't be able to do the show next year." It's not an overstatement to say that without Lorne Michaels, American TV comedy would be in a very different place. {mosads}The comedian, who played Trumpon the showbefore his departure in August of 2016, said that Michaels was so specific about what the NBC cast could say about Trump. The Times reporter, sensing Michaels dodge, reframes the question about SNLs liberal bias. John Lennon later told Playboy that after watching Michaels make the offer, he and Paul McCartney seriously considered heading down to 30 Rockefeller Plaza to accept half the money. The pair wed in 1991. Were doing more of that kind of thing than stuff about Benghazi or the new budget agreement. We have to coddle the self absorbed babies who have no concept of the real world. But Jimmy has always just been a great entertainera real host. He joked, "'She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah' that's $1,000 right there. However, the future Carrie Bradshaw's impressive resume seemed to mean little to the show's head honcho. worst ever "Saturday Night Live" guest hosts, Live From New York: The Complete, Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live, Live From New York: An Uncensored History Of Saturday Night Live. If anybody got antifan mail or a disparaging note, it would be posted. A riot on the 30 Rock building's 17th floor then started as a result, but even this didn't persuade Michaels to placate the disgruntled. Michaels offers a rambling answer, ending with a revealing quote: But the first priority cant be not offending people you like or who are powerful and if someone does something stupid, it would be glaring to not deal with it., None of these snagged an SNL skit last year. If you want to give Ringo [Starr] less, that's up to you. Michaels and co. turned Fords rare missteps into a recurring bit. Of course, it is a big deal if a Saturday Night Live sketch flops with audiences. Former "Saturday Night Live" actor Taran Killam said the show's creator and executive producer Lorne Michaels told the cast to tone down criticism of then-GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump. Its rare that you find both.